Monthly Archives: June 2014

UPDATE: Critique of EM Paper by Andrew Maniotis: OMSJ Deserves a Refund

June 13, 2014 Leave a comment

UPDATE: It looks like the paper has been taken down from the site I had linked to in this post! I am trying to figure out how to post the paper as a pdf file here. If I cannot, I will at least post the text without the pictures. This is proof that this site has them running scared.

I have found the EM paper by Dr. Andrew Maniotis that I mentioned in my previous post.  At first I was excited to read the paper. I know some people will not believe me when I say I was keeping an open mind, but I was. Unfortunately the excitement and open mind quickly changed to frustration simply because the paper is so poorly written. That is NOT intended to be a jab. It is the truth. Before you continue reading this post, do me a favor and read the paper:

COMPARISONS OF “HIV” VIRAL LOAD MEASUREMENTS WITH ACTUAL COUNTS OF VIRIONS: CASE REPORTS AND REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE

(NOTE: The beginning of my critique will be to highlight some of the obvious deficiencies. The second part provides a response by an actual expert as to why EM is not proper and sufficient for diagnostic purposes.)

Other than just professional curiosity, I was also excited by the title of the paper. The “Review of the Literature” especially intrigued me. The first thing I did was look at the footnoted references. There are 122 references and just glancing through them, it seemed they were from actual peer reviewed publications! That got me really excited until I read the end of the introduction. Out of the 122 references, 120 of them were simply citations about the “more than 100 other known reasons to register positive on either nucleic acid or protein-based “HIV” tests [1-11, 13-59, 61-120].” That does not leave much literature to “review” in the other 20 pages of the body.  (I won’t mention how the dissidents love to trot out that tired old trope about cross reactivity and exaggerate it…because Maniotis did it for me in this very paper)

Maniotis supplied us a great example of how the dissidents exaggerate the fact that some antibody tests cross react:

In 2004, the Red Cross reported in The New England Journal of Medicine that even after repeated testing using different test kits, low-risk populations, such as blood donors (or military recruits) will typically yield 12 (PCR-positive) or 2 (ELISA positive) out of 37,000,000 samples, leaving potentially 10 out of 12 false positives, depending on which test kit you believe accurately detects “HIV’s” molecular signatures [101].

So, out of 37 Million tests, 12 were false positives! Actually, two of the 12 were later confirmed to have been true positives. So 10 false positives out of 37 Million does not seem like a big deal to me. But I’m not really sure what percentage that is. As Shirley Q. Liquor says: “I ain’t too good at math: I ain’t my glasses on.”

A bigger source of concern highlighting the deficiencies of this paper is the many places that demand a reference.  I know the Abstract of a paper does not necessarily contain references, but the very first sentence was a huge red flag. However, this sentence was also the first sentence of the Introduction, just slightly re-written. A reference was definitely required:

Abstract: “Viral load tests have been under increasing suspicion of detecting false-positive signals.”

Introduction:  “In only the past several years, “HIV/AIDS” diagnoses have encountered a series of increasing challenges regarding the specificity of any of the protein or nucleic acid tests.”

Here are a few more examples of statements that required referencing:

  • Alternatively, we considered that “HIV” PCR and protein readings for years have likely represented extreme oxidation states in ill persons.
  • To date, “viral-like particles” only  have been documented by AIDS researchers to occur in Petri  dishes or in test tubes after certain oxidizing chemicals are added such as PHA, IL2, interferon antibodies, and the like. 
  • And these in vitro studies demonstrate,  rather than infectious or pathogenic  “HIV” harboring surface projections or any other pathogenic viral parts, that most,  if not all of these viral load readings are spurious chemical reactions that probably represent endogenous “junk” nucleic acid sequences or HERVs that are synthesized by oxidized cells or caused by various local or systemic pathologies.
  • Roche’s viral load tests typically test 3-10 times higher than LabCorp’s tests or others.
  • It is known that the  freezing of biological material can create ice-crystals that could in principle disrupt “HIV” structural and infectious integrity, as the CDC, blood banks, Factor XIII and IX preparative industries first discovered in their quest to to protect the blood supply, and to establish the pathogenic requirements and/or disruptive conditions that would destroy the virulence of various blood borne pathogens including “HIV.”

That is just a small sampling of statements that require referencing. It also demonstrates extreme bias on the part of the researcher as it is obvious that much of this is speculation and opinion.  However, the last example (above) leads me to my next problem with the paper:

METHODOLOGY

Immediately following the above quoted sentence comes this:

Therefore, ten blood samples processed for EM in this study were not dry-ice frozen and thawed, in order to avoid disruption of “HIV,” avoiding this potential pitfall regarding how these physical changes were thought to destroy structure and pathogenicity of “HIV” early in the AIDS era. The samples were fixed in gluteraldehye shortly after the blood draw, and thus were shipped to diagnostic EM labs in a protein cross-linked state, that is impervious to degradation.

OK, now we are getting to the actual specimens and getting away from the jumble of confusing info about the “dominant case history featured here”: This mysterious “professional boxer who battled ‘HIV’ diagnoses that ruined his professional boxing career for 23 years…” ALL of that information can be disregarded for several reasons most notably are that many of the specimens are as old as two years. There is no discussion as to how those specimens were stored for that period of time. As I point out above, Maniotis admits that old, frozen specimens could “disrupt ‘HIV’ structural and infectious integrity” and that is the reason he used 10 fresh specimens that were never frozen.

But wait, Maniotis only pretends to discuss the 10 specimens. He goes back to the “professional boxer” and rehashes the different VL readings: None of which he provides documentation for. Also, Maniotis claims that all of these VL readings were “in the absence of ARVs” but conveniently provides no proof for this. Actually, if you were to put these results into a table, (as I have done below) it is quite easy to see how they could very well be the result of said boxer going on and off ARVs:

 

Date Viral Load
June, 2010 252,000
December, 2011 4,100,906
June, 2012 204,000
August 8, 2012 1,930,000
Augusts 28, 2012 9,090,000
December, 2012 14,000

Quite frankly, including the entire saga of “the boxer” case only serves to highlight the conspiracy theory perpetuated by dissidents that HIV tests are worthless. It also detracts from the credibility that no ARVs were consumed when one reads the many contradicting news articles about “the boxer”. Furthermore, why would you want to call into question the very methodology (PCR) that you have used to “calibrate” your comparison theory?

“Here we present a case in which we calibrated an “HIV-1” viral load measurement of 204,000 / mL as determined by PCR tests…”

Oy ve, this paper is more like a study in contradictions than one of EM! But I digress…

Instead of actually discussing the 10 fresh, never frozen samples, Maniotis begins to SPECULATE and make ASSUMPTIONS for many long, poorly constructed paragraphs as to what, other than HIV, was actually being detected by PCR in the blood from “the boxer”. I cannot decide if I am upset, disappointed or just saddened by the quality of this paper. The dissidents have waited all these years to finally do some actual laboratory research to confirm their hypothesis, and this monstrous mess is what they get.  I cannot continue with this critique.  I will leave the last part for an actual expert in the field.

Analysis by an ACTUAL EXPERT

Here is the succinct question posed to a PhD Scholar with the California Institute of Technology, Division of Biology:

Q: I am just curious if you have a short answer for why HIV is typically not seen in a EM from patient plasma?

A: Historically, electron microscopy has served as an effective method to identify viral agents of infection.  However, the use of electron microscopy as a diagnostic tool is limited by its requirement for a high concentration of particles in the clinical sample.  The limit of detection for diagnosis of a virus by electron microscopy is widely accepted as 10^6 -10^8 particles/ml.1  For HIV-1 patients, a “high” viral load may range from 10^4 – 10^6 HIV RNA copies/ml. Because each HIV particle carries 2 copies of the viral genome, 1×10^6 copies/ml would translate to 5×10^5 particles/ml, placing, in many instances, the positive detection of virus outside of the detection limit of electron microscopy.  Another consideration is that although HIV can be transmitted through blood and blood products, the viral burden in an infected individual is found primarily in the lymphatic tissue, not in the blood (HIV in the blood may represent just 2% of the total viral burden).  Finally, the detection of HIV in blood by electron microscopy may be further complicated by the structural pleomorphism the virus displays. 

  1. Hazelton and Gelderblom Emerg Infect Dis. Mar 2003; 9(3): 294–303
  2. Courtney V. Fletcher, Kathryn Staskus, etal January 27, 2014, doi: 10.1073/pnas.1318249111

BACK TO ME

If we can believe this actual expert who has had real life in-lab HIV research experience (and we can) then we see what Maniotis is trying to do cannot work. There are simply not enough virions in the peripheral blood.  Again, let’s look at an example taken directly from the Abstract:

Here we present a case in which we calibrated an “HIV-1” viral load measurement of 204, 000 / mL as determined by PCR tests, against the actual number of “HIV-1” viral-like particles in the peripheral blood of the same patient.

204,000/mL is much too low for detection by EM. If this is what they used as a calibrator, then the entire experiment is set for failure from the very beginning.  What is even more questionable is the fact that Maniotis used the specimen with the 204,000 VL. Why not use the specimen from the same patient with the VL of over 9 million?

It gets even worse. This is from the portion describing Gluteraldehyde Fixation:

Twenty-two mL of peripheral blood is drawn from an arm vein. 2 mL of thiws plasma.Two mLs of plasma is then sent to Roche.  Roche’s viral load tests typically test 3-10 times higher than LabCorp’s tests or others. We tried to obtain the highest viral loads available from people naive of ARV’s to increase the probablitity of finding one virion in 10 people’s plasma samples.

Spelling issues, punctuation and sentence structure aside, this is a great example of how bad this paper is. Maniotis either needs to provide a peer reviewed reference for his ridiculous statement that “Roche’s viral load tests typically test 3-10 times higher than LabCorp’s tests or others” or he should have sent duplicate samples of each specimen for PCR VL testing: One to Roche and one to LabCorp and provide the results in this paper. However, that may have put a huge damper in Maniotis’ unfounded, non-referenced opinion.

The rest of the method describing Gluteraldehyde Fixation is terrible because it does not so much describe the method that was actually done, but speculates and makes assumptions about the method. Maniotis makes it very clear that the method was not completely performed by him or his associates. He makes it equally clear that portions of the method in his control were not necessarily standard procedure:

This speed and time is warranted because when they do (emphasis mine) genotyping of “HIV” of a sample that contains less than 1000 VL, in order to “boost” the “virion particles” in that sample of peripheral blood to amplify it to more than 1000 VL/mL, which is the limit needed for genotyping.

OR

Most diagnostic EM labs will comply with this approach, (emphasis mine) because they only take glut-fixed blood samples from patients.

This is all I can stand for now. I have sent a request for other experts to weigh in, but it seems that once they read the paper they just do not see the point in wasting their time. One thing is for sure, I finally feel sorry for OMSJ. NOT!

 

HIV Innocence Group on Hiatus: OMSJ Takes Over in Research Capacity

June 7, 2014 Leave a comment

The activities at Clark Baker’s HIV Innocence Group appear to have come to a drastic halt. As I recently reported, Baker has not posted a single case to his website since November of 2013. I can only assume it is because of this website where I have meticulously documented the proof that said Group is an allusion of what Baker is presenting to the public. Perhaps other defense attorneys are using this site as a source for properly vetting Mr. Baker. Most attorneys do not want their hard work attributed to someone whose only contribution is making a phone call.

But what has become of Mr. Baker? It seems he has switched his focus to Research. The comment below is from RA facebook posted September 2013: (NOTE: bolding is mine for all sources)

 Clark Baker Having been involved in MANY cases since 2008, I’m convinced that HIV and AIDS are real. We’ve photographed HIV and continue to engage in HIV/plasma experiments using electron microscopy.  It’s also hard to avoid the fact that most living organisms, including humans, eventually die from conditions that compromise health and lead to an Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) and death. But like Mullis and Duesberg, we found NO REPRODUCIBLE PROOF that HIV causes AIDS. If such a proof existed, OMSJ has the funding and resources to prove it ourselves.  But we’re not at dead end – I suspect that we’ll soon ask HIV researchers that question in one or more videotaped depositions. Stay tuned.

 Personally I will believe it when I see it.

At least one person seems to believe what Mr. Baker tells him. Martin K. Barnes has been involved in the AIDS Dissident movement for quite some time but he seems to be more comfortable behind the scenes. The email below from January of 2103 was part of an email list meant only for other dissidents. Because the list is comprised of dozens of names and addresses and has been so widely circulated it was not hard to come by; especially 18 months later. Of course when we “orthodox” communicate via an email list, it’s a Big Conspiracy with the direct goal of bringing down Clark Baker and will get you sued in Federal Court. (sarcasm intended)

 ——– Original Message ——–
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 14:54:58 -0500

To: HIVAIDS Dissent List

Surprise…The Office of Medical and Scientific Justice— besides winning 49 court cases and counting– has begun to do much of the research that was suggested last June at our conference in Vers-Pont-du-Gard! This research, Clark explained, is being carried out at major universities. It compares viral loads, antibodies and phylogenetic analysis in samples that are HIV+, HIV-, and HIV- with various illnesses. The results so far, explained Clark, seem to be confirming– simultaneously– views held by RA, Perth, HEAL and even our conference chair, Etienne de Harven! 
This seemed impossible to me at first, but once Clark showed me slides on his computer and explained their origin, I understood where he was going with the research. But due to the explosive political nature of this information I cannot explain more about it at this time. We have to keep this quiet for now until the work is finished. 
But I will say this much. Clark has commissioned this research for defense against prosecutions based on phylogenetics. But on the way he is apparently building a case for the non- existence of infectious HIV! I have registered for a monthly contribution to OMSJ to help finish this research and support OMSJ’s continuing success in court. Clark expects the results to be available in 2013.
Do you have any disposable income? Would you be willing to set up a monthly payment to OMSJ?  Let’s let Clark know we are here and that we support his work! Please donate using this link: http://www.omsj.org/get-involved/donate
Let’s make 2013 the year that the AIDS paradigm crumbles!
Martin K. Barnes

Just from those two sources we can gather lots of information about this research. (How much of it is actually true remains to be seen.)

·         What: Phylogenetic & EM Research

·         When: Since June of 2012 = 24 months ago

·         Where: “Major Universities”

·         Why: Manipulate the Court (and because they said so)

·         How: Unlimited Funding (& Resources)

 Before delving into the specifics of what has been presented so far, there is one more source I need to post. Below is part of an email from Andrew Maniotis dated December 2013.  The full email is posted at the Immunity Resource Foundation website. The IRF was started by Joan Shenton and is basically a repository for “educational” information on dissident ideas. The email is incredibly interesting and contains much information:

 We’ve set in motion today, the erection of an “HIV” viremia testing lab in Houston, Texas…

 I’ve had literally hundreds of people come to me to test them during the past year or so, yet EM labs throughout the world, including PERTH’s are afraid to test our split samples, once they know what we are doing, and the EM lab managers go running for the woods when they figure out what we are asking them to do. This is why we need our own testing lab run by me and Dr. Jonas Moses. I have 5 perfectly processed samples that appear in [a] paper. Which is why we need to get this lab going, and we are seeking more funding. I’ve decided to donate all the CONTRACT RESEARCH LABORATORY that tests for many things, using an electron microscope analysis that we have obtained at first through Baylor College of Medicine, run by a friend of mine at first, until our JOEL 2000 EM is installed.

What/Where/When

The first thing I notice is a huge discrepancy. Mr. Baker claims “major universities” are willingly taking part in this research. Dr. Maniotis, on the other hand, acknowledges that not one single EM lab in the entire world will help them. Maniotis seems to be implying a conspiracy among these institutions to subvert the truth. The more likely scenario is the samples are not adequate/proper for this application. I have discussed this before. One thing that does give me pause is Dr.  Maniotis’ claim they used the EM at Baylor College of Medicine “at first…run by a friend of mine”. This could mean Maniotis’ friend surreptitiously allowed them to use the EM until they were caught. It could also mean that Baylor knowingly allowed the usage. I am not sure, but I have contacted Baylor College of Medicine and they are looking into it. I will post an update when the investigation is complete.

Where is this paper with the “5 perfectly processed samples” that has been finished since at least December of 2013? Is it in the middle of the peer review process? I do not know. I sent a request for details about the paper via Joan Shenton @ IRF, the source of the email. Ms. Shenton was gracious enough to include me in the email chain when she forwarded my request to Dr. Maniotis. My personal policy in these situations is to wait approximately one week and send a follow up request; wait about another week and send a third request and then drop if it I do not get a response. This is the protocol I followed in this situation and I did not get a response. Surprise! If anyone has any information please contact me.

However, there is some interesting yet cryptic information from our favorite whacky dissident, Elizabeth Ely. I know she is emotional but that does not discredit all her information. The thread is from April 30, 2014. I have only included Ely’s comments as they are the only pertinent ones:

Elizabeth Ely I’ve noticed that the goons and Internet shills talk endlessly about how demands for electron microscopy of HIV are misleading — right at the point where they are obviously informed that there is a paper waiting to be published on just that. They call more attention to the issue.April 30 at 11:11pm

Elizabeth Ely Yes, it’s waiting to be published. They’re stalling. I cannot say more. My grief is too deep. April 30 at 11:14pm

Elizabeth Ely I have a draft. I’m going to burn it the day the author of it dies. April 30 at 11:16pm

Elizabeth Ely I had the audacity to believe in someone, without cynicism. I believed in this paper, this project. Now all I hope for is that the other side will blow itself up, as it is doing, very ably, right now. . . . The paper says that HIV-positive people with all kinds of “viral load” counts are HIV negative when tested by EM. No exceptions. All of them. . . . The second-best thing they deplore over there is the truth. The first is love without cynicism; that is their enemy. April 30 at 11:19pm

Yes, very dramatic and cryptic, but it proves a paper has indeed been written and Ely has a copy. But who wrote it? Ely confirms the author is Maniotis a month later on May 25:

Elizabeth Ely 1. HIV is real, if you call what the government labs call “HIV” by that name also. You can actually get ahold of this — well, some people can get ahold of it — and put it under an electron microscope and see what they’re calling “HIV.” Whether this substance is pathogenic — disease causing — at all is not important, because nobody has yet been able to find these things they call “HIV” viruses in the blood of an HIV-positive person. This has happened repeatedly and is the subject of an upcoming paper by Andrew Maniotis, Ph.D. — also a fact used in the defense of at least three criminal cases to-date. In other words, you can see “HIV” from a government sample under an electron microscope, or what they’re calling “HIV,” but you can’t see it in the blood of HIV-positive persons. 5 hrs

It is strange the way her tone has changed in one short month. The first melodramatic thread sounds as if all hope for publishing the paper is gone. One month later it is as if Ely’s lithium has kicked in and all hope is restored. The fact remains: A research paper on EM written by Dr. Maniotis is complete and has been for at least 6 months. So where is the paper? Why has it not been published? Has even JPandS refused? Dr. Bauer, can you help get this paper published? I am asking anyone and everyone to please contact me if you have any information.

How: Funding & Resources

The funding is probably the most fascinating part of this entire revelation. Of course as with most things relating to Mr. Baker, documentation is hard to come by.  The most recent OMSJ tax returnsare for 2012 and I found them using Guidestar. For a 25 page document, there are very few boxes filled in. It does, however, show that OMSJ has been getting donations in significantly larger dollar figures:

2009: $38,582

2010: $93,930

2011: $124,331

2012: $421,590

That is a sizable asset jump from 2011 to 2012.

However, the expenses are equally important especially considering Baker started his research in June of 2012. With research being a very costly endeavor one would logically assume a big portion would be itemized for 6 months of research. So, out of the $326,850 in expenses Baker had in 2012, how much is shown on the tax form for research? You guessed it: ZERO. Unless line 24e “other expenses” is for research. But I do not believe much phylogenetic or EM research could be done on $2,968! Baker did have a positive balance of $89,284 going into 2013 and if his donations continued into 2013 apace with the increase into 2012, Baker should be sitting on some nice funds for his research.

But wait: What about other expenses for OMSJ? Legal fees alone should be substantial. Baker filed a lawsuit in Massachusetts against “John Does 1-10” in January 2013 and used Farber’s attorney Miltenberg who is not cheap. He also has to pay a 2nd attorney in Massachusetts as local counsel. He also lost arbitration against me in 2013. The $1,700 in filing fees is not so bad, but his attorney fees will have been much more substantial. After he lost that arbitration against me (and was found Guilty of Reverse Domain Name Hijacking) he turned around and filed a Federal Lawsuit against me. His attorney fees will be massive in that case (not to mention he will have to pay my attorneys fees when he loses).  Don’t think that he will not have to pay any fees until the suit is over. I am sure he paid his attorneys a substantial retainer as well as paying them more when that retainer was used up. From the volumes and reams of paperwork he has submitted, his is paying handsomely.

Why? M-O-U-S-E

I do not think any of this “research” will see the light of day. Two years have now elapsed since Baker has begun this “research”. By now there should have been some concrete results. I am hoping and begging that we get a chance to see it. Hell, I may even donate to OMSJ myself.

Out of Control: Elizabeth Ely and the Corruption of Sanity

June 5, 2014 Leave a comment

NOTE: I was not going to write a post about this issue because it deviates somewhat from the purpose of this site. On the other hand, it is a great example of the extreme emotions generated by the issue of HIV science and those who question it. The subject matter also compliments my previous post about the vacuum of negativity that permeates ReThinking AIDS.

There is a maelstrom of anger going on in the comment section of ReThinking AIDS facebook page lead by Elizabeth Ely. The anger and venom being spewed by the hysterical Ms. Ely should be a warning sign to those who actually care for her.  Ely is irrationally pissed off that a fellow dissident and his HIV+ fiancé consented to low-dose AZT treatment for the mother during child birth and for the child after being born.

John Strangis posted a video to youtube explaining his decision in a thoughtful and rational way. Instead of showing any support or modicum of respect, Ms. Ely chose to go on a several hour long rampage spewing anger at not only John and Jessica, but also at Jonathan Barnett (also a dissident), and Yours Truly. It seems that in Ms. Ely’s world I am “spying” on John and will alert the “authorities” if John does not consent to giving his newborn “poisonous treatments”.  Jonathan Barnett’s mysterious crime seems to be “consorting with the enemy”. (Read Jonathan’s excellent blog post about this same subject here.)

It is all so incredibly crazy, irrational and stupid that I find it hard to grasp. I will post some highlights from the first thread and let the readers make up their own minds.  The allegations made by Ms. Ely about me are so wild and absurd that they deserve no response. However,  I will go on the record to say that I have never “spied” on Strangis, his fiancé or any HIV dissident. I have never alerted any “authority” whatsoever with regard to anything having to do with HIV or how other people choose to live their lives. My sole reason for “liking” Ms. Ely’s posts was to let her know that I have read her comments and I am keeping record of her campaign of defamation and lies against me. Ms. Ely knows this because I have sent her private messages on facebook telling her as much. I cannot stop Ms. Ely from her tirade of defamation against me, but I am glad she has gone to such outlandish lengths. Now it is obvious to anyone with half a brain or rational thought that Ms. Ely is not being truthful, honest, rational or logical.

P.S. Extra points go to anyone who understood the significance of the title of this post. (HINT: Think Celia Farber and Harper’s Magazine)

This is how it started, with a dramatic yet vague pronouncement. It quickly devolved.

Elizabeth Ely
To my friends here: I am absolutely inconsolable. I cannot tell you what has happened, but please send your prayers. I am considering leaving the movement. xoBeth
  • Elizabeth Ely I have a lot of things to consider. I want never again to be even close to the reckless, careless ending of a young life. Ever. This is against my values and the very reasons I got involved in this. . . . I am determined not to shed A SINGLE TEAR for what you are about to hear is happening in the next few months. I will be just as cold and heartless as the e-mails and posts will tell you I am. And I will not discuss it.
  • Elizabeth Ely Most of all, I want to make VERY CLEAR that I am not involved in these doings. I have refused to be involved in it, and I will continue to refuse. Without guilt.
    Elizabeth Ely I will not be the person to break the news. I will only tell you how I feel, and ask for your prayers, for me. For me, Goddammit. Just pray for me. I’ve given what I can. . . . Just remember: The ONLY lesson I wish to teach here is to move into the light, from the darkness. Do not fight the darkness, teach the light.
    Elizabeth Ely Once I stop wrestling with all this mess, I will have time to write my book and truly bring light to the world. I regret that some have chosen to descend to Hades to fight the devil. They won’t win.
    • Elizabeth Ely I have a lot of things to consider. I want never again to be even close to the reckless, careless ending of a young life. Ever. This is against my values and the very reasons I got involved in this. . . . I am determined not to shed A SINGLE TEAR for what you are about to hear is happening in the next few months. I will be just as cold and heartless as the e-mails and posts will tell you I am. And I will not discuss it.
    • Elizabeth Ely Most of all, I want to make VERY CLEAR that I am not involved in these doings. I have refused to be involved in it, and I will continue to refuse. Without guilt.
      Elizabeth Ely I will not be the person to break the news. I will only tell you how I feel, and ask for your prayers, for me. For me, Goddammit. Just pray for me. I’ve given what I can. . . . Just remember: The ONLY lesson I wish to teach here is to move into the light, from the darkness. Do not fight the darkness, teach the light.
      Elizabeth Ely Once I stop wrestling with all this mess, I will have time to write my book and truly bring light to the world. I regret that some have chosen to descend to Hades to fight the devil. They won’t win.

    The next thread is a classic demonstration of conspiracy theory and fear mongering with aspects of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships. People who are narcissistic are frequently described as cocky, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. Narcissists may concentrate on unlikely personal outcomes (e.g., fame) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment.

    I could highlight examples in the thread of conspiracy theory, fear mongering and NPD, but they are so obvious and plentiful there is really no need. After reading the thread several times my opinion of Ms. Ely has gone from bemusement to one of empathy and concern.

    I would be remiss if I did not mention that my spirits were surprisingly lifted to read several dissidents taking Ms. Ely to task and calling her out for her contradictions and overall bull. I am also pleasantly surprised RA has revoked Ms. Ely’s moderator status as well as her membership. It’s too bad they did not see this coming in the previous months with Ms. Ely’s increasingly erratic behavior and pattern of defamation.

    Elizabeth Ely via Jonathan Barnett

    Now it’s public. This is bullshit. I offered help, gave options, made him understand, hopefully, that this was not something to be messed with. And in the end, I get that he lied about far along his wife was in her pregnancy, kept messing with the wrong people, and was, of course, spied on the whole time. . . . I will NOT go down with this assault.

    The Birth of my Son – My Last Video Speaking about HIV Dissidence

    My son was recently born and I chose what I believed to be the best option for my son and our family. The fight between HIV “denialists” and the orthodox sid…

    YOUTUBE.COM

    John Pavel I can’t believe this!! All his talk about how AZT is horrible and now he is ok with his wife and kid being on it?! I would never skip birth control with a woman unless we had a definite diagnosis of infertility. Also I would have hired a home birth delivery by a doolah that I trust.

    Yvonne BenderHe DID NOT say he was ok! He said he will bring his kid home and heal him. He said he didnt want to start a fight he CANNOT win.

    Yvonne Bender She is VERY premature. 3-4 weeks. Home birth is out and any Doula who takes your money and attempts it under those circumstances is insane.

    John Pavel Yvonne-but why bring your kid to a hospital after we’ve all seen dozens of time this same thing happen? Medical records are kept on every one and I’m sure the hospital staff were just waiting to pop the pills in them

    Yvonne Bender I think we should see this for what it is. A FREAKING WONDERFUL BLESSING! No reason why this is not the ultimate gift with a woman you love just like it is for neg people. They got pregnant and kept their baby most normal thing in the world. Have you watched his videos? Do you know how many times he says FIANCEE? Its too cute.

    John Pavel So is there no alternative to a mainstream medical hospital?

    Yvonne Bender Please can poz people have an ordinary life? With the permission of the dissidents of course.

    Elizabeth Ely Sigh . . . everyone is a victim, aren’t they? Nobody could at least STOP posting offensive things to the other side on their Web outlets. It would just be too much, wouldn’t it? Too hard. Too much of a “difficult choice.”

    Yvonne Bender at 4 weeks premature there isnt except maybe a hospital in Mexico but I dont think he had time to drive her out of the crazy USA!

    Manny El Dino Elizabeth we are a lion cub fighting in a world of savage beasts! I would hate to be in a situation like his but we don’t want another Baby Rico situation here where the law gets involved and still gives the baby that poison under a monitor watch!!! Either way it’s a lose/lose situation! You can spill your knowledge and cause to these people but their medical school brains are just going to see you as a nut case. John is a smart man, if his son is in any medical danger he knows how heal the body. The Nigels little girl was given heavy doses of AZT and turned out well once going off of it after a few years. I know John isn’t going to sit back and watch his son be poisoned!

    Elizabeth Ely And we just got notified by 7 more “likes” that JTD is spying on us right now. . . . Can you guys get a clue as to what you are doing here, and who is looking at it?

    Yvonne Bender John is not the most highly independently resourced guy I know. He did the right thing. Baby home soon.

    Elizabeth Ely They’re taking the kid anyway. I know all the details of the Baby Rico situation. They did exactly the same thing, and it didn’t help. They’re already preparing the forms to take the child, with blanks to fill in for what they’re sure the couple is going to do.  It all rests on one’s “state of mind” when it goes to trial — which, in this case, it probably won’t even go that far. They use every single public and Web statement against you.

    Elizabeth Ely Yes, they did the right thing in submitting to the medicine. But nobody is fooled. They know the attitude is bad.

    Yvonne Bender ‘attitude’

    Elizabeth Ely They’re not going to let this kid go off the medicine in a couple of years. In Minnesota, they admitted it was indefinite, until Steve and Cheryl got a better attitude. And they’re not even the parents.

    Elizabeth Ely WAKE-UP CALL.

    Yvonne Bender We already know one should high-tail it to Mexico. But there just wasnt time with a pre mature birth.

    Elizabeth Ely John led me to believe they had just found out Jessica was pregnant. Not almost 7 months’ pregnant. That they had “time” to “figure this out.” Baloney. Now we all have to jump in and “help,” or we’re publicly outed as hard-hearted jerks. They had time, months ahead of now, and they didn’t even need to go to Mexico.

    Elizabeth Ely Some people just love drama.

    Yvonne Bender Yes thats right Ms Ely. Help him. Or you are a hard hearted jerk!

    Yvonne Bender John doesnt have alot of dosh. I think you should not judge. They probable were lining up a doula but premature birth fkd up that idea and then he did his best.

    Yvonne Bender Are you afraid of a little work?

    Yvonne Bender do some work! You cant be complaining coz we had a baby.

    Elizabeth Ely I’m not judging. I’m saying, Gosh almighty, what the heck are we going to do, when such people don’t give us half a chance to help at all? And then they go and consort with our enemies, just to get back at us? Good luck with that!

    Yvonne Bender I think John was gonna keep it quiet, not tell an online soul, use a doula and then show him to the world when he is 5! That is what I would do too.

    Elizabeth Ely Then all that should have been in place already. I urged, repeatedly, to take no chances. What I got was “we’ll see how it goes.”

    Elizabeth Ely Wake up call, people! Wake up call! Listen!

    Yvonne Bender consorting? You mean Jon Barnett? John S never did no such thing.

    Elizabeth Ely He let Barnett post his video on his Facebook page, as an object lesson in the importance of “common ground.” How naive! If we just invite these guys with blogs over for tea and potato chips, we’ll call off the hounds! . . . Y’all go join Barnett. I’m done with ya. Seriously: Go count your T-cells to death, and get all cozy with the other side, and make passive-aggressive attacks on the movement. Then complain that we’re all too “dogmatic” for your taste. Either way, it doesn’t matter. The state will come after your kids.

    Manny El Dino Elizabeth i understand what you mean and what youre saying but in front of these medical fools you will look like a lunatic! He was in a horrible situation and we should be praying for the best, not bashing him!

    Manny El Dino I’m going to remove this post because this is pure bash on a member on here

    Elizabeth Ely Go ahead. I never wanted to spread this news anyway. It compromises his position, as if he hasn’t done that already.

    Elizabeth Ely It’s why I’m contemplating LEAVING THIS MOVEMENT. I knew it would end like this. I’m being attacked, tried to do the right thing. Assholes.

    Manny El Dino you’re not being attacked youre the one attacking here

    Yvonne Bender Dont pull it Manny El Dino. we need to know how everyone feels

    Elizabeth Ely No, I’ve been attacked for months. Take me off the admins, and block me from this group. It’s a loser of a cause, this site.

    Yvonne Bender RA board is far from perfect but it should be. As for the people hurt directly by hiv/aids we know full well they can only do their best at any given moment to save themselves. RA board should do the same. Stop complaining coz we had a baby. Its not nice. Help him.

    Elizabeth Ely Please. Block me. I want OUT OF HERE — because if I stay, I have to listen to all this boo-hooing over what people should have done, the poor kid, the poor parents, all that — when we knew exactly what to do. Just keep a low profile. I urged it for months, and my advice was shunned. What do I need to do to get excommunicated from you assholes?

    Elizabeth Ely Don’t blame me for upping the temperature around here . . . I have always been the one telling people to calm down. Nobody listened. I’m done.

    Manny El Dino you’re the one name calling here and attacking here no one is attacking you

    Yvonne Bender Ms Ely the sooner you understand what a VICTIM actually is the less of your confusion we will have to endure. A victim is a person who is hurt by something. They remain a victim until that hurting stops. A victim is not an attitude problem. Or a plavc you occupy coz you prefer it. People need help to get out of being a victim coz if they are still there its because they cant get themselves out. So… help him already with all you have.

    Yvonne Bender You gonna leave the group coz we has a baby. bligh!

    Elizabeth Ely And I’m a victim of this. I’m about to stop being one. I did everything I could, put myself out for someone. And this is what I get. I told him honestly, this morning, what to expect. He should thank me.

    Elizabeth Ely I’m leaving right now . . . leaving the group. Grow up, keep your own Facebook page.

    Yvonne Bender You are not a victim of anything. Compared to Baby Dom and John? Help goes to the most in need. That is called justice. You are not the most in need in this moment Ms Ely. This tantrum is UNCOOL.

    Manny El Dino This happened to Tomas, John S, who else, a few have just jumped on this wagon and made their grand exit out of the group, I wondered who it would be next…..guess now I know.

    Yvonne Bender Pull yourself together woman!

    Yvonne Bender You gonna leave the moment you are needed. Heck of a friend you turned out to be.

    Yvonne Bender What you are saying is like the greatest victim of a plague is the person with resistance who has to nurse the ill and bury the dead! I dont think so!

    John Strangis Nice, thanks Beth. I will remember this.

    Yvonne Bender We have a BABY!!